Turbo Fox project...
 

I've had my block, crank, rods, pistons, etc. for a while now. They've been "aging" in a corner of the shop because of other priorities. I pruned a few "smacktalk" posts out of this thread (including mine), since everything keeps getting delayed. LOL.

Engine will be a 331 and includes the following parts:

4-bolt R302 block
4340 forged crank
H-beam rods
Ross Pistons

Engine management will be a FAST classic sequential box.

Team Z suspension going under it along with tubular K-member and coilovers.
I have full intentions of driving the car on the street, to work, track, etc...

I hear ya' Matt! I know the feeling,my coupe sat under the carport for 3 years with no engine/tranny in it while I built up my 306.Not having the free time to do it all at once can be frustrating!:banghead:

:yup: yep. I had some of the parts before Italian LX even ordered his 418 stuff.

You power-adder guys who've built your motors...what kind of piston clearance did you have in the bore?

I have my sights set on a figure, but I'm curious as to what you guys used. And what type piston and bore size for the given clearances. :nice:

Oddly enough, I was bored, and leafing through an engine building book. This is what the guy says in regards to forced induction piston clearance:

"I prefer to bore the cylinders to within .004" of the finished size, then hone each cylinder to fit a particular piston. In this way I can keep piston clearance to a tolerance of about .0003".
[...]
First using 220 grit stones, about .003" of material is removed to bring the bore to .001" from its final size. Then another .0005" is taken out with with 280 grit stones, and finally 400 grit stones are used to bring the bore to its final diameter. This result in a very accurate bore with a fine finish that requires very little break-in."

give us some SPECS on the motor.:wiggle:

Hmm..."Tolerance on a clearance"...probably along the bore. This must not be confused with a .0003 clearance alone between piston and cyl though! That would lock up in about two seconds.

Well, it's a 331. Compression is a modest 8.5:1 but I don't plan on leaving it naturally aspirated... It'll be Supernaturally Aspirated. :D

Yes, yes. I was going to say something about this guy's horrible writing.

Get that trademarked.

so u going to have a hair dryer grey tapped in there with some long drop cords?:jester:

:shrug: whatever it takes to win as many paper races as possible around here. :D

paper dont count in my book!!!!! ETs:metal:

better sell that turd then and get something else



:D

Okay... how 'bout signature racing then? :poke:

hey i am playing and i am stock!!!!!!!:baby:

what does your piston manufacturer recomend ? you just dont have a poll about that

No poll, just wondering what these other guys values are. :nice:
Must be a top-secret, seeing how they jumped in here with numbers. :D

Ross has a range of values for turbo and for street car. I'm setting mine up somewhere in the middle, to avoid a noisy cold-start. The 2618 alloy expands more than a 4032 or hypereutectic piston, so I still must give it some room. I concurred with Mark O' Neal. .0045 is my goal. +/- .0005

So has my new heads, intake etc. shipped yet? :popcorn:

:yup: ...suuuuure they have Dale. :nice:

In fact, I don't know what I will do now in searching for that magic 300 hp level. :D

:rofl: :rofl:

Update? :jester:

Not really. It's a slow project. My engine work is not finished yet due to the fact that paying customers come first. I can sacrifice. :nice:

I did get a transmission tho. :cool:

What kind of transmission are you going to run? Auto or manual?

I have been thinking about using the aod that I have in the shop for the '65 TT project.

I have had regrets since I sold my C4 to Preston
...so I got another automatic again.

:D.....

And I am glad u did.I am very happy with it.What converter are u gonna use?

I got an Ultimate Converter. :nice:

is it gona be ready track day?

Hey coupe come over this weekend and u can help work on my junk.I have a nice shaded pear tree to work under and right now it has nice cool mud hole to stand in!lmao

Update: The machine shop guy flaked out (long story) so I loaded up all my parts and brought them back to our shop. I have another guy picked out already; just need to take it over there.

Balancer came in Monday and the cam should be here any time...Comp Cams had to make it. After machine and balance work, I only lack lifters, pushrods, headstuds, and gaskets to have motor done!
:banana2:

so what it will be running next year:jester:

Postponing this darn thing again... :tlash:

Just moved into a bigger shop and bought a lathe to increase productivity.
I did receive my cam though. :nice:

i am buying some tools this year to. i am after a pipe bender and welder now:metal:

Little bit at a time...

I decided pay special attention to the pistons, since they are a critical part of the engine's ability to make dependable power. For durability and efficiency, I smoothed the sharp edges on the valve reliefs and sent the pistons off for some coating work by DART COATINGS.

The Temperature Reflective coating is done to the top of the piston to increse burn energy while keeping the piston cool. It's a zirconium-titanium ceramic which has a gold color and is bonded to the aluminum.

The Anti-Friction coating is added to the skirts to keep friction minimal along the cylinder walls. It is a Flouropolymer/Moly mixture which is slick like Teflon, but much more resistant to contact with metal.

http://www.supernaturalturbo.com/pics/piston3.JPG



I also had the exhaust valves coated with the Temperature Reflective coating to handle the turbocharged heat a little better.

http://www.supernaturalturbo.com/pics/piston1.JPG

If nothing else, it will be a nice looking engine when assembled. :D

Too bad you won't be able to see how nice it looks once it's put together. :D

Someone must be planning on making a little power taking that kind of care with the rotating assembly. ;)

what does it cost to get those parts coated matt?

Price sheet here:

http://www.dartheads.com/images/prod...load_specs.gif

I can discount those prices a little bit.

Bring parts to me and I will make the arrangements. Turnaround is about a week. :nice:

How much weight does it add?also how much cylinder wall clearance does it take up would a little honing get someone back to clearance if block is already bored.I think it a good idea especially on a boosted application. I couldn't decipher the price looking at it on my blackberry.I have a set I am considering this on.thx clyde

I didn't weigh my pistons before (:banghead:) but it's a very thin coating that partially penetrates. The anti-friction on the skirts adds somewhere from .0004 to .0008 (less than a thousandth), so no real changes needed to bore.

Piston skirts: $18.50 ea.
Piston top (gold ceramic): $29 ea.

Those are retail prices. They also have oil-shedding and anti-corrosive coatings.

cool thx

stuff looks badA$$!!!!

Couple teasers...:cool:

http://www.streetstangs.net/attachme...1&d=1242664513

http://www.streetstangs.net/attachme...1&d=1242664513

i like the wheels:metal:

:werd:

I like TEH stainless!!!!! :rockon:

very nice!!!!

Since I wanted to do it myself, I measured my rods, pistons, pins, rings, and bearings...and came up with a bob-weight. Gave that data to my crank manufacturer and they custom balanced a crank for me according to my specs. Should be here soon. I had a crank setup for 28-oz... but it is sold and the new one will be internal now!

So I just lack the hardware and gaskets, assembly, and install into car along with transmission and rearend. Car is currently gutted awaiting install of a rollbar and some subframe re-inforcements. Maybe by the fall?!? I'm not in a hurry. The very nature of this project has taught me to be patient. Hope it pays off with a decent runner. :nice:

It will be a tuff ride !good things come to those who have patience.

Very nice Matt.....now if you would build me a set of stainless headers for the cobra....:D

By the way what kind of wheels are those?

That wheel is a Bogart Fluted Star. It was Donated... but it's a GM pattern. So I gotta find something else. I made a contact at Holeshot wheels last weekend (the owner) so I might see what they can do. :nice:

Let me know what you find out as I am going to need another set some time in the future. :jester:

http://www.supernaturalturbo.com/pic...ofox/crank.jpg


And these oughtta hold it in:

http://www.supernaturalturbo.com/pic...ofox/mains.jpg

:cool:

MMMM beefy

Very nice Matt!!! ;)

Are those Pro-Gram caps?
What block are you installing them on?

Well i have a entire turbo setup for you, if you already dont have one

:lol: thanks.. but I got the turbo stuff covered. In fact, we're trying to find a buyer for a Ponydown ceramic coated kit too (belongs to a customer)... most people want to go turbo, but only spend "nitrous" money. :rolleyes:

Dale, it's a M6010-R302 block. Those are the caps that come on it.

Wait.......you actually know how to do turbo "stuff". :jester:

That block is a good one. They should be pro-gram caps that are on that block if I remember right. ;)

Block is finally at the machine shop.

:banana2:

I decided to take it to Howton's Automotive Machine in Hueytown, AL. For those who don't know, they used to build Bobby Allison's Nascar engines waay back in the day. Nice equipment, their work checks out great, and they take care of us. Also took a Buick GN block (109) to them for fitment of an RJC girdle (requires machining of caps). They have done a few of those for us over the years. :nice:

Finding a good machinist is hard to do nowdays. It took me a long time and I finally found a guy that is a one man shop, so the quality control is excellent. I got him torque plates and he does the hone to my specs. Honing is the single most important thing you can do to an engine to either make or break power and ring seal.
did you ever get your specs for your piston to wall clearance?

Yea Michael. I specified .005 (+.0005/-0.000) to keep cold-start noise to a minimum.
It's a bit tight, but the heat-barrier coating will keep some heat out of the pistons.

so the block is done then? Or close? I can't wait to see pics! Oh, got the clutch today, thanks! My lady took a pic of it at the shop for me. I posted it so my buddy could see his new toy.
I am still toying with sending that turbo down to ya.

Yea. Block's finished. Bored, honed, square-decked, cleaned, new freezeplugs, and threaded inserts into the water passages on the deck (used for "Yates-style" heads only). I'm using conventional inline heads.

that's cool. Is it an R block then? or a Dart? I didn't think the Darts had those unecessary holes in the deck? Post up some pics of the block, I'd like to see it. It'll give me something to do!

It's the R-block...says SVO on the front. M6010-R302.

They have the Yates passages just like the NASCAR tall-deck motors. If you use regular gaskets without plugging the holes, they will seep coolant out the sides under the head.

I don't have pics of mine, but here's a shot of the plugged holes on an R302 block:

http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k2..._ZX14/PIC4.jpg

Photo courtesy of Brent Davis.

Yeah, I have an R block for my renegade engine and did the exact same thing. Now the new boss blocks aren't round holes for some stupid reason, so you can't plug them up like that. I had to swap out gaskets and started using one Felpro came out with that works for the boss block. Ford introduced the boss and didn't have a head gasket for it yet, great huh? I hate being the first one to do something but that's the way it was for both the boss and my R. I drove to Bennett's to get my block years ago, because he was the only one in the country that had some. Anyway, sorry for the ramble.

Yea... the BOSS has one hole on the lower portion, and it's a triangular "as-cast" shape like the top holes on a normal 5.0L block. Not sure what to do with that...maybe hard-fill the block. LOL.

The R-block was definitely an upgrade over the old A4, but I'm not so sure the new BOSS is an upgrade over the R.

It's not! I am not impressed at all other than price. Price is good, but from now on it's Dart for me.

The shorter cylinders in the BOSS leave little to be desired too.

I'll just keep using 351W blocks for mine:D

Some folks say you can't do a 3.400 stroke "dependably" into the Boss block, but some have been successful with it. In fact, I believe Bob Kurgan is using that very combination in his NMRA Drag Radial ride. :shrug:

Indeed they're stronger than their OE short-deck counterparts, but I'd rather not even think about the block as being a potential shortcoming. :huh:
Not to mention I already have short deck accessories and want to keep it under a stock hood. :nice:

Yes he does.

Sounds like me....
You are correct in saying that the boss block is not an upgrade to the R IMHO.

After seeing the Boss block in person with a dial indicator in my hand I will stick with the Dart blocks. In my opinion the boss block is not as good for anything over 3.25" stroke as the Dart's. If anyone is looking to upgrade get a dart shp, sportsman, or iron eagle. The Dart shp will handle most anything that the ordinary street/strip car can throw at it. ;)

I believe the SHP block is within a few hundred hp of the sportsman block. It just has a little less cast iron in the cylinder walls, but not much. They just want to sell more blocks in troubled times! I know I am buying one and going to see if I can see 800 rwhp out of my current 600 rwhp setup. I will probably be stretching the limits of the intercooler and the blower, but what the heck! It's worth a shot, worst thing happens is 75something. lol.

Off Topic:

Just an FYI the SHP looks just like the sportsman except in the lifter valley.
The SHP also has 1/2" bolts in all the center locations on the mains & 7/16" in the outer on 2,3 & 4. Where as the sportsman has 7/16 in the center and 3/8" in the outer...... :)
The SHP cylinder walls are the same thickness according to the sonic check that was done on my block.
The SHP will hold 1000hp if the tune is correct.
There are already a few SHP's running a little over 800rwhp now. :D

Back on topic:

Update?

Yea... I was putting the heads back together and found one of the exhaust valves to be bent slightly (it wouldn't take a seat with the lapping compound). I don't know when or how it got bent, but I sent a casual inquiry to Edelbrock about it to see about getting another.

Just today I got a phone call from them. A gentleman named Jeff took care of me on one of the exhaust valves so it should be here soon. I will send it off to get the thermal coating done like the others and hopefully have them assembled shortly after.

I'm pleased to say that Edelbrock's customer service rivals the quality of their parts! Top notch in my book and they will get future business from me.

Oops......glad they took care of it for you.
And there customer service is a lot better than about 10 years ago.
By the way Scott Armish is working there now too. :D

Is Dart going to do the coating like on the pistons?

Whats your completion date i am eager to see this one in action!prob like mine having to buy sell trade and beg and borrow to complete it.lol :jester:

Yes Dale... i'll send it to Dart. I already coated all the exhaust valve faces with the gold heat-barrier coating, including the bent valve... so it will just be a pretty paper-weight.

Clyde... I don't know the timeframe. I must assemble the engine first. Already have the heads, cam, rockers, intake, TB, injectors, and FAST. Once the motor stuff is in, I can bolt up the transmission, which is sitting quietly in the corner.

Then I need to square the car up so I can put some sort of cage and subframe supports in. That will let me install the rearend and TeamZ rear suspension. I want the car to go straight when the boost comes in...I've seen what a poorly setup suspension does when a big turbo kicks in and it isn't pretty. :nono:

You and me both. This started out as an engine project to put into my blue coupe with a C4 and small turbo. In not so many words, it has "evolved" into a bit more of an undertaking.

Ahhhh...freakin finally!

Still contemplating on what color to paint it... you can see the threaded
water-jackt inserts in this pic:
http://www.streetstangs.net/attachme...1&d=1256790784

Here's the mains again...I do have ARP studs for these...
http://www.streetstangs.net/attachme...1&d=1256790784

This block has had some extra prep-work done, lastly by BB&T before I got
it. You can see why these are a bit stronger than stockers:
http://www.streetstangs.net/attachme...1&d=1256790784

Bore is 4.040. Seeing how these Rblocks can go 4.125 or more, it's got plenty of life left!
http://www.streetstangs.net/attachme...1&d=1256790784

MMMMM Beefy! :nice:

Just a work of art. :banana:

Nice :drool:

that block is sex in a block...:drool:

Been doing a little work on the heads. Not hoggin' 'em out; just some runner transition shaping and bowl cleanup is all...
I mean c'mon, it's just 331cid. :D

Nice work, Matt! Those things should flow at least enough for 300 rwhp. ;)

Good work! Looks like i will need one more 50 shot

Wow, looks good Matt! I was wondering how it was going, so I thought I would stop in and check it out. Can't wait to see it going together. Heads look good for sure.

http://www.streetstangs.net/attachme...1&d=1265992808

http://www.streetstangs.net/attachme...1&d=1265992808

http://www.streetstangs.net/attachme...1&d=1265992808

:drool:

Looking real good Matt.

Now you need to finish it up so you can come out here and put my 363 together. :jester:

Mine has been on the engine stand since I picked it up from the machine shop around Thanksgiving of last year. Along with all the supporting hardware that is still in boxes. To much work and not enough play...........:nono:

You know I travel!

:jester:

I'm out of work for a few more months too

:drool: I think I just touched myself too...lol

its got some bolts missing:wiggle: so what 3 more years to go on it?:jester:

did you have crank done or did it come with polished oiling holes for the rods?

Naa. I didn't tighten anything down because the front counterweight was hitting the bottom of the cylinder bore...
so I took everything apart and clearanced it.
It's just an off-the-shelf 4340 crank...nothing special.
Who's counting?

If I had the extra cash I would think about that very seriously. That way you could make some extra cash and I could get my motor finished...:D

But the wife and I are trying very hard to get the house paid of as quick as possible......before the bottom falls completely out of the oil industry too.

Slowly progressing.

I just love installing rings and wristpin circlips... (:tlash:)

http://www.streetstangs.net/attachme...1&d=1269923270

http://www.streetstangs.net/attachme...1&d=1269923319

looking good! was it spiro locks?

Yes, spiro-locks.

I done mine to and got good on the 5th one. how much end play does yours have?

I have a set of dental picks, which make pretty quick work out of spirolocks actually.

Which endplay are you talking about? Clearance between locks and wristpin?

On the crank. back and forth

Looking good Matt.....I like the coating.

And as was mentioned don't forget to check crankshaft end play.... :D

six and a half thousandths. :nice: